Antony Loewenstein is an Australian journalist, filmmaker and author of the book The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation to the World. For over 20 years he has been documenting Israeli policy, arms trade and global digital surveillance.
In this episode we talk about:
🔹 what „The Palestine Laboratory” is — how the occupied territories became a global testing ground for drones, spyware and facial recognition systems;
🔹 Israel’s relationships with Eastern Europe — why Poland, Hungary and other countries in the region are buying Israeli weapons and what that says about their priorities;
🔹 the impact of October 7th on the arms trade — did the Hamas attack change anything about global demand for Israeli military technologies;
🔹 alternatives to Israel’s arms monopoly — what the international community can do and what signals are already emerging;
🔹 the divide within the global Jewish community — how the genocide in Gaza is reshaping the diaspora–Israel relationship and what that means for the future.
Automatic transcription:
Reground #4
Ewa Górska
Antony, I’m really happy you’re here on the show, or actually two shows, and I’ve been actually looking forward to have this conversation for a long time, so I’m very happy we’re doing this.
Antony Loewenstein
Well thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
Ewa Górska
So just to start first I would like to ask you in your own words what „The Palestine Laboratory” is about?
Antony Loewenstein
[02:06] So the whole concept of the Palestine Laboratory I guess the best way to describe it is that Israel for decades, long before October 7, long before 9-11, has been using the occupied Palestinian territories, and I would argue, in fact, even before 1967 – I talk in the book about how this really arguably existed before the existence of the state in 1948, that Israelis, Jews, before Israel became a state – Zionists – used their forms of control of Arabs, Palestinians, as a testing ground. And this obviously has become much clearer since 1967 when Israel took control of the West Bank Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. But it was present after 1948 – for the first 19 years Israel essentially kept Palestinians under military rule. I mean, that’s often ignored or airbrushed in much of Western ideas.
What’s amazing to think now, that for much of the global left, then they saw Israel as a socialist paradise. They went to the kibbutzes in Israel. I mean, it’s absolutely insane to think about that now because it was a complete fraud. I’m not saying the kibbutzes themselves, they existed and there was a degree of socialism there. That’s true, that part’s not a lie, but there were no Arabs, there were no Palestinians. They were somehow invisible and no one seemed to want to ask that question. So where are the Arabs? Where did they suddenly go? In fact, often they needed, the Jews used the Arabs as labor, apart from having the fact that they’d taken their land after 1948.
So, the Palestine laboratory, I think, really, yes, it started before 1967, but it certainly accelerated. 1967, obviously, was the Six-Day War, when Israel took control of those territories I just mentioned. And essentially the whole range of techniques and tools that Israel has been using for so long to control Palestinians, to manage them, so to speak. And in the modern era, I guess post 9-11, 21st century, with the digital revolution we’re talking about, or even more recently in Gaza, which I’m sure we’ll get to, after October 7, is the use of AI warfare, drones, spyware, facial recognition technology, and they use all that technology and those tools to control Palestinians, which they then sell and promote as so-called battle tested in the Palestine Laboratory. And it’s sold to countless countries around the world. I estimate at least 130, so the majority of nations on the planet, including Poland. And that’s been the case for a long time with Poland, and it seems that Poland and Israel are getting closer, which I’m sure we’ll discuss. But so, the laboratory itself has been around for a long time, but I don’t think it’s got nearly enough attention until relatively recently.
Ewa Górska
[05:09] I agree. Although, well, I’m a researcher, so probably I live in my own bubble and maybe I see it a bit more clearly for a long time as well. But yeah, I want to focus on Poland and maybe generally Eastern Europe, because I think often it’s forgotten. I think it’s easier and more clearly visible that Israel would sell all those “battle tested” weapons to the US for example, but we forget, which they are doing have been doing for a long time yes, well that goes both ways – US is also selling out – yeah exactly – but when it comes to for example Eastern Europe, when it comes to Poland, which seems like a – well Eastern European or Central Eastern European depending who you talk to – democracy or when it comes to the Ukraine and the war or aggression by Russia there, it seems somehow invisible. So yeah, I would like to ask you about that.
Antony Loewenstein
[06:13] I mean, the Ukraine war with Russia is an interesting case, because before Russia invaded four years ago, Ukraine had regularly asked for, wanted to buy, a huge amount of Israeli spyware and weapons. And in general, with some exceptions, Israel said no. And it was often unclear why that was, but the reason was very clear. It was all to do with, ironically, Vladimir Putin and Syria. Let me briefly explain. Before Assad fell a few years ago in Syria, there was obviously a brutal civil war that killed, what, five, six hundred thousand people. Russia essentially entered that war about ten years ago on the side of Assad and had control of the skies. They were using their war planes regularly bombing, killing huge amounts of civilians. And Israel wanted freedom of the skies for its own purposes in Syria to target what they claimed were terrorists or Hezbollah, and they had to therefore had good relations with Putin and Russia, which they generally did. So therefore, when Ukraine under Zelensky, who’s obviously been president for a long time, would make requests to Israel for spyware and other tools, Israel largely said no. And interestingly, in the last four years since the war has continued with seemingly no end in sight, Israel has actually not still sold huge amounts of weapons and technology to Ukraine. They have sold some. There was some pressure during the Biden administration to do so. There’s been no pressure as far as I’m aware since Trump came back to power. The pressure of Israel to allow them, you know, allow Ukraine to buy weapons.
Other parts of Eastern Europe, it’s hard to generalize, but clearly the most obvious example of a deep relationship is Hungary and Netanyahu, Hungary and Israel, partly based on the ideological alignment between Orban and Orbanism, if you want to call it that, or his worldview. Obviously, Orban is not Jewish, but they have a very similar worldview, they being Netanyahu and Orban. Why? A hatred of multiculturalism, a hatred of Islam, a hatred of migration. I would argue in some weird way, a hatred of parts of the EU. I mean, even though Hungary is obviously in the EU, and in fact the EU is the biggest trading partner of Israel, but I think there’s a lot of, I mean I see that Israel treats the EU like garbage. and they seem to praise him in return. It’s a very weird dysfunctional relationship.
Poland – briefly – is a bit different. The relationship has not been as deep. There is certainly a relationship between, obviously Poland’s had various governments over the years, you know it better than me, and Israel has been selling increasing amounts of weaponry and surveillance technology to Poland over various governments, not just the last more right wing. I’m not talking about the government now, my understanding in Poland is pretty right wing too, but the government before was even more right wing. I guess it’s a question of your perspective. And in many ways, I think although with Hungary and Israel I see that as a yes it’s a weapons sale. I mean, Hungary is a tiny country. We’re not, it’s not as if Israel’s getting massive amounts of money from Hungary. They’re not. But what they are getting is a key ally in the EU, which can often block certain kinds of attempts by some EU officials and countries to, for example, condemn ongoing occupation of Palestine, or Israel’s genocide in Gaza.
Not that the EU, of course, frames it like that, but there are some European states like Spain and others that have been quite critical, very critical actually, since October 7. So, with some countries, with Israel, there is a purely financial defense relationship. Country X wants a weapon, country X wants spyware to spy on their citizens, their dissidents, their journalists, Israel will sell to them. For others, like say India or I would say Hungary, the relationship, yes, is financial, but it’s also ideological, a similar worldview. And just last week briefly and finally, Prime Minister Modi from India, the world’s biggest country, the world’s biggest, I mean they claim it’s a democracy, I would question that, but self-described democracy, visited Israel for the second time, just before Israel and America’s strike on Iran. And that relationship, which had been deepening for years, I’ve done a lot of reporting on that. I had a film people can watch, I did a film version of the Palestine Laboratory on Al Jazeera which last year people can find that on YouTube very easily, it’s a two-part series and we spent time in India. And it was very clear that yes, it’s an ideological relationship where in Modi and Netanyahu’s case, what brings them together? Frankly a mutual hatred of Islam, a mutual hatred of multiculturalism and in both countries, Zionism and Hindutva, the ideology behind Modi’s Hindu fundamentalism, a belief that the India’s 200 million Muslims should be isolated or when his, I think, ideal vision kicked out of the country, if not worse. Not that that’s happened yet, but they’re treated terribly, a second-class citizen, as Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims and Palestinian Christians are in Palestine. So, they really share that worldview, as I would argue Orbán in Hungary does with Netanyahu as well. But it’s to finally, finally, it’s not just a personality thing. Netanyahu will eventually not be prime minister. Orbán at this election in Hungary in April, he might lose, he might win, we don’t know, that’s hard to say. A lot of those ties will remain. They don’t simply rely on two so-called strongmen to thrive. There is an ideological support there, and I think as many European nations increasingly fear, rightly or wrongly, Russia’s shadow, particularly after the invasion of Ukraine, many European nations, even some nations that have been against Israel’s genocide in Gaza, are still going to Israel and wanting and begging to buy missile defense shields and weapons and spyware. So, it’s a very interesting dysfunctional relationships across the world between Israel and these nations.
Ewa Górska
[12:48] Yeah, and I think, like, looking from the outside or looking just part of it, it makes sense. Like, if you talk about ideology, it makes sense that certain interests will align. If you talk about fears of war and profits or like some countries, especially, for example, right now, EU, some NATO states, Eastern European countries fearing Russia would like to buy, let’s call them better. We can come back to that example Poland, Russia, Ukraine it becomes a bit chaotic at the first sight because Israel aligns with Russia but then Poland is actually buying weapons to defend itself from Russia and to sell weapons to Ukraine, so what the heck actually…
Antony Loewenstein
[13:48] I mean that’s correct but Israel doesn’t care and frankly I don’t think Poland does either. And I would argue much of Europe doesn’t care. And the idea that a nation like Poland is increasingly keen to buy Israeli drones and spyware and weapons that have been directly used and tested on Palestinians, again before October 7 but certainly since, in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere, when there is Israeli leaders, Netanyahu and Yoav Galant, the former defense minister, wanted war criminals for war crimes and genocide. The idea that a state like Poland would be attracted to that… Now, if you ask them, I’m sure they would obfuscate and say, well, no, no, we haven’t got an opinion about that, or maybe they support what Israel’s doing, they possibly do. I think Poland in general, from my understanding, correct me if I’m wrong, has been relatively supportive of what Israel’s been doing in Gaza, certainly in a practical sense. Rhetorically not always, yes. I mean, essentially the EU, look, the EU has made a political decision for years, with very few exceptions, to allow Israel to get away with literal murder.
Again, I thought this and wrote about this long before October 7, that there is a, I mean every country is different in Europe, but the most powerful ones, say Germany, I did a film last year called Germany’s Israel Obsession, which I guess pretty much speaks for itself what that means. It’s basically Germany, and I’m a German citizen, I’m an Australian, people can tell my accent, but I’m also a German. And Germany is fanatically pro-Israel, which basically means an insane and very problematic crackdown on any kind of show of pro-Palestine sentiment. And for them, the German elites, much of the German media, and I would argue much of the European elites, especially nations that were complicit in the Holocaust, which clearly does involve and include Poland, there is this deluded belief that by blindly supporting Israel you are atoning for your sins. Now they don’t always word it like that, the Germans sometimes do. And I know that there is a very unresolved denialism amongst many in Poland about their ancestors’ deep and historically based complicity in the Holocaust, right? And that debate I know now and then flares up and there’s some Polish official or Polish journalist or Polish historian who kind of pops up and says, well, you know, the Russia, the Germans forced us to do everything, or we didn’t, you know, we were fighting back. Of course there was Polish resistance, yes, but the fact is the vast majority of Poles did nothing, said nothing, and many of them were complicit in the genocide of the Jews. I mean, that’s just the fact. And yet despite that, and the fact that Israel has too often I think turned a blind eye to that, the fact that you have a major European state that can’t even accept its own complicity 80 odd years ago in the death and murder of Jews, are happy to pal around with and make out with, frankly, Israel. And I think it just shows that, well I mean in some ways from the Polish side, I understand that. I mean, it’s, it’s completely shameful and outrageous. From the Israeli side, it’s just shameless self-interest. Because they want to make a friend and they want to sell weapons and spyware. It’s not much more complicated than that.
Ewa Górska
[17:45] Yeah, looking at it from a Polish perspective or like political narratives, I would say that somehow politicians and large part of Polish society is able to divide two things. So officially, we’re all against genocide in Palestine, but our own security because of Russia’s aggression and the fear of war, and this is something different, so we need to buy.
Antony Loewenstein
[18:15] Yes.
Ewa Górska
[18:16] But what does that actually mean in terms of, let’s say, economy, for example? how much does it change that so many states and also Europe is buying weapons from Israel? How supportive is that of genocide, in your opinion?
Antony Loewenstein
[18:35] Hugely, because there’s two questions. There’s obviously the economic question, how much money are states spending? I mean, Poland, like Hungary, is a relatively small state, not a huge population, not hugely influential, no offense to the Poles, but it’s not a hugely influential country. I say the same about Australia. I’m not picking on Poland. So, Israel is not partnering with Poland simply for the huge amounts of money. The money is, relatively speaking, not a great deal. There is a desperate need that Israeli officials have had for years and years for so-called acceptance and legitimacy. Now, what does that look like? That can look like a range of things, buying weapons, voting in a certain way at the UN, Polish leaders coming to Israel, vice versa, it can mean a range of things.
And to me, what it says that a state like Poland is willing to overlook Israeli actions in Palestine and continue to buy drones or spyware or other weapons, allegedly because they fear Russia or Putin, means that they don’t see Arabs or Palestinians as deserving life. And I say that because if you are buying those weapons and spyware which you know, and I am saying to people because the evidence is there, has been tested on human beings, then you are willing to overlook the fact that Israel has killed 70 to 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza, it may well be more, we don’t know. And many of the weapons and spyware and drones and quadcopters, which are basically killer drones, and AI warfare, a whole suite of tools and weapons are paraded and promoted to states like Poland. And many states like them find that very attractive. And in some ways it’s not so much to replicate annihilation in Gaza. As far as I’m aware, Poland is not about to annihilate its neighbour, let’s hope not. But if there is the potential of a Russian aggression or invasion or occupation or something in the coming years, and I’m not saying by the way, just so listeners think I’m not taking that seriously, I’m not ignoring the fact. I don’t live in Europe, that’s true, I live very far away, but I’m not ignoring the fact that Russia and Putin, I think, do have expansionist views. I think that’s pretty uncontroversial to say, I’m not suggesting I think they’re about to invade Poland tomorrow, I don’t think that, but the idea somehow that this expansionism and idea of almost undoing history will stop with Ukraine, I think, is delusional. I don’t know what that exactly practically means for Europe.
Obviously, that’s something that Europe I know is grappling with in a range of ways, and that of course is what makes Israel seen as so attractive. Because as I say the EU and Israel are the biggest trading partners with each other, they’re very close. Officials in Brussels are willing to overlook Israeli occupation or war crimes or genocide or settlement building or settler violence or profound racism or the fact that a majority of Israeli Jewish citizens in polling, a majority in the last two, two and a half years, are saying in polls, P-O-L-L-S, not P-O-L-E-S in public surveys, that they support ethnic cleansing of Palestine. I mean, this is not some fringe idea in Israel that there was a couple of crazy people like, Ben-Gavir and Smotrich, these extreme ministers. And those two men obviously are fundamentalists and genocidal. But the sad reality is that a majority now of Israeli Jews often share their beliefs. I’m not saying every Israeli Jew, I’m saying a majority do. And therefore, if a state are using and deploying and buying weapons that have been credibly accused and with huge amounts of evidence to have been complicit in, if not genocide, and I do see what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. That is what Poland is partnering with. And their eyes are open when they’re doing that.
Ewa Górska
[23:23] So what did – you are talking about it basically all the time, but to organize it – so what did October 7th and the ongoing genocide change when it comes to arms trade?
Antony Loewenstein
[23:36] You know, something I often get asked is, doesn’t October 7th show that nothing works? The Israelis spent literally billions and billions of dollars. And I’d been to, I haven’t obviously been to Gaza since October 7, there’s no foreign journalists allowed in. But I’d been to Gaza over the years, in the last 15, 20 years, and seen the Israeli infrastructure they were building, walls and surveillance and all this kind of technology. And essentially a group of well-organized insurgents, Hamas, were able to breach any number of the, you know, the wall and the surveillance towers within a short amount of time. And there has been, at least publicly, very little reflection on that. Because huge amounts of the Israeli defense sector had invested in all that so-called security which literally failed. But one of the things that’s become clear to me over the last two and a half years since October 7, it wasn’t in some ways really a technology failure. On one hand, yes, the technology did not work particularly well. It was disabled by Hamas very quickly, which left the Israelis blind essentially and allowed Hamas to then go into Israel and do all manner of things. In some cases, in my view, commit hideous violence and terrorism. There’s no question about that. But it wasn’t so much a failure of technology, it was a failure of imagination, it was an imperial hubris. There was a belief amongst many in the Israeli military establishment, political establishment, and frankly media establishment, that Palestinians in Gaza, including Hamas, would be content, seemingly forever, because they were being paid off by Qatari money, that as people may be aware, Netanyahu himself was facilitating that, you know, money literally going in to Gaza in suitcases, cash, to assist Hamas to keep them in power. I mean, that on its own should be a reason why Netanyahu should not be in power, for Christ’s sake. But here we are, two and a half years later, there’s an election in Israel this year, he may well win. Don’t even get me started on that.
But it wasn’t so much a failure of technology on October 7, it was this belief that Palestinians would be content to be occupied forever. That they would sort of live their life in a open-air prison, which is what Gaza was and still is, and just accept their fate. Now this is not to defend Hamas actions on October 7, I think any, well I mean it’s a complicated question, but I think in any, you know, objective view, the situation for Palestinians in Gaza now, or for that matter the West Bank, is undeniably worse than it was before October 7. This is not to idealize Palestine before, it was a brutal occupation, but Gaza no longer exists, it’s gone. And the so-called vision of rebuilding is what we’ve seen Trump and Jared Kushner unveil, which is essentially like Las Vegas, right? So, these, just to finally answer your question, so what you’ve seen in the last two and a half years is Israeli weapons companies, defense companies, surveillance companies, very quickly pivot to seeing the, what was clearly going to be an overwhelming display of Israeli force backed by the US and frankly much of the West. I mean Israel was bombing Gaza already on October the 7th and sending ground troops the end of that month in October 2023. That they have made an absolute killing from the war, both from sales to the Israeli state in the IDF, but also overseas.
The latest figures we have for the Israeli arms industry, we haven’t got the figures yet for 2025, we should get those in a few months. But the figures we have for 2024, this is from the Israeli government, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but I think it’s relatively accurate. It was just under 15 billion US dollars. And the biggest trading partner for weapons was Europe. And I think there’s a very good chance that when we get the figures for 2025, in a few months, that that figure will be even higher. From probably Europe, Germany, I’m sure Poland will be in there, no doubt. So, the Israeli arms industry and surveillance industry is doing very well. Thank you very much.
Ewa Górska
[28:24] Yeah, I’m sure Poland will be there. And is there, I know that there is cooperation and I know that Elbit is very interested in selling weapons to Poland right now, and I’m sure the deals are being made. But let’s go back for a second to my question from a few minutes ago. So is there no alternative apart from like idealistic worldview in which we are able to disarm and not have wars anymore and humankind will change itself and will not wage wars and technology will not be part of it. But why is Israel or seems to have monopolized the world and arms trade and is there no alternative?
Antony Loewenstein
[29:10] I think there is an alternative. I don’t want people to listen to this podcast and just think, oh my God, everything is hopeless. I mean, things are pretty grim. I mean, recording this when there’s a, frankly, out of control war in the Middle East. I mean, things are incredibly dark at the moment. So, I’m not going to give people false hope. But look, there’s, Israel is around the eighth biggest arms dealer in the world. They’re not number one. America’s number one. Israel, I don’t think is ever going to beat America. I mean, you know, Israel is a tiny country. America is a superpower of 340 million people. I think it’s a superpower in decline, but it remains a superpower nonetheless. And there is an alternative. For example, before the October ceasefire in Gaza, which frankly has been a sham because there’s been hundreds of Palestinians who have been killed during the so-called ceasefire since.
Spain in some of the biggest examples ever cancelled around $1 billion of contracts with Israel and as a sign that they oppose what Israel was doing in Gaza and frankly beyond. And I have no indication that those contracts have been re-signed. I’m not saying Spain is an idealistic state, they have their interests and would not shock me at all in months to come if one reads that they quietly have re-signed it or they’ve gone back to Israel. I mean, publicly the leader of Spain, Sanchez, remains critical of Israel, to be sure. He’s opposed the bombing of Iran. So, I mean, that to me is an example of a state and a government taking a stand. And in fact, it was the first time in living memory, having written about this issue for over 10 years, where many in the Israeli defense sector were very worried.
One billion dollars is not going to sink the Israeli arms industry, not at all. But if that has an effect of other countries following suit, then you have a different story. Now we have not seen, sadly, huge amounts of other major arms buyers from Israel stopping those contracts. And as I said, on the one hand, the Israeli arms industry is doing pretty well. But in some ways, the larger picture, the longer term picture, which I think is both very dark for the Middle East and Israel, but certainly one that could give some people a degree of hope is that Israel has clearly made a strategic decision, and I don’t think it would change if Benjamin Netanyahu was no longer prime minister. The likely successors to him are relatively similar in their worldview and ideology, Naftali Bennett or others, that it is very much a country that lives by the sword and not dies by the sword, but lives by the sword.
And there was a speech Netanyahu gave a number of months ago which got a lot of criticism in Israel, but in fact articulates I think how he sees and how many Israelis see themselves. He said we need to be like Sparta. In other words, this kind of garrison state surrounded on all sides by our walls and technology and really how I see, this is not his words, these are mine, there is a great irony here that when Zionism was founded in the late 1900s, it was founded by people who claimed, and this was true, that anti-Semitism was rife in Europe. Now obviously I don’t support Israel, I don’t support its behavior by any means. But they argued, which was correct, that Jews face deep discrimination in Europe. That is, that was just a fact. And they believe that Europe would always put Jews in a ghetto, and therefore, either in a literal sense or metaphorical sense, and therefore we as Jews, and I am Jewish, although I’m not religious, we need to build our own state. Now, obviously how Israel has done that since 1948 – 1948 it’s been ethnic cleansing based on ethnic cleansing, ongoing discrimination, etc. But now we have a situation in 2026 where the only way arguably Israel can survive is to reghettoize itself by choice. So, you are building as an Israeli state a ghetto. Yes, you have the illusion of friendship with Egypt and Jordan and the Gulf states, but that to me is an illusion. Yes, there are peace deals with Egypt and Jordan, and there are, may well be more peace deals in years to come with Gulf states or even Saudi Arabia, but it is a paper tiger that there is no indication that the vast majority of Arabs in the Arab Muslim world want to be friends with Israel. There are some who do. Business opportunities for other reasons, there’s a range of reasons. I mean, there is sadly a lot of anti-Palestinian sentiment in the Arab Muslim world. It’s a complicated picture. But the illusion that Israel can essentially just be a Sparta forever is just that. It is a delusion. Can it last for the foreseeable future when you have a Trump administration on board? Absolutely. But the headwinds in the US particularly, where just last week Gallup, which is one of the leading polling companies in America, found that for the first time in 25 years of polling this question, more Americans, this is Democrat and Republican overall, supported Palestinians than Israelis. And growing numbers of young Americans, Democrats, and Republicans, between 18 to 35, including many on the right, I guess the so-called Tucker Carlson worldview, which is very much not my worldview, but that sort of Tucker Carlsons hard right increasing anti-Israel sentiment, which is no doubt a growing movement within the Trump coalition, for want of a better expression, along with obviously most of the left, which doesn’t like Israel at all, is turning against Israel. So, yes, can Israel continue to operate as it has now for a while? Absolutely.
But demographically, they have a problem, which is why, just finally, they are increasingly partnering, this is Israel, with the global far right. In Europe, and the US, and elsewhere, political parties that historically have been literally anti-Semitic, even neo-Nazis, to form coalitions with these kinds of parties or groups, which to me is an absolute insanity as a Jew, that you are partnering with people who 20, 30, 40 years ago may have had swastikas, you’re now inviting to, there was a conference in late January that the Israeli government invited the far right from Europe to a so-called anti-Semitism conference. I mean irony is dead when that is happening. So, I think all the trends are going in a deeply disturbing direction. I think in the long run what Israel is doing probably cannot survive, but for the foreseeable future, it is going to cause a lot of carnage in that part of the world, which is what we’re seeing literally as we speak.
Ewa Górska
[36:43] I know we are out of time, but can I ask one last question?
Antony Loewenstein
[36:46] Yeah, sure, one last question. Sure.
Ewa Górska
[36:48] What does that mean to Israeli society and Jews worldwide?
Antony Loewenstein
[36:54] Just a small question to end.
Ewa Górska
[36:56] Oh yeah, just, you know [laughter]
Antony Loewenstein
[36:59] Well, there are roughly 16, 17 million Jews in the world. It’s a relatively small population, roughly half in Israel and half in the US. And obviously there are Jews around the world elsewhere. I’m in Australia and elsewhere in Europe. But in general, there are really two main countries in the world that have Jews, Israel and the US. And what you are seeing in the US, I’ll get to Israel in a second, yes the far right and the orthodox Jewish community is very pro-Israel, very hardline, very supportive of Netanyahu, not particularly just him, but that worldview. But younger, more progressive Jews, so 18 to 35, are turning away from Israel in huge numbers.
And in fact, what I call a civil war is occurring in the Jewish community in America. I mean, it’s a non-violent civil war, mostly. But there’s a civil war going on, ideologically, that more and more Jews are saying, I cannot be expected to support what Israel is doing in my name when they are killing and torturing and raping Palestinians. I’m sorry, I’m just not going to do that. Israel itself is a much darker picture. There was another study that came out last week which found that the younger Jewish population who are going to be voting for the first time at the election this year, it’s voluntary and you don’t have to vote, but many will. Israel has been, this has been the case for a long time now, is moving much more to the far right. In general, there’s no real left in Israel. Of course, there are leftists, people who are, I have some friends of mine who are very brave individuals who are trying to change the situation there, but they are vastly, vastly outnumbered.
Israeli society itself is increasingly sharing a mindset with what I would compare to South Africa in about 1985, which is the ghetto mindset. We can do what we want. We have a superpower behind us, which in Israel’s case is for sure true, the US, and frankly Europe, and frankly much of the Arab nations, for now, no one can stop us, we are going to expand our territory, whether it’s Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, potentially Iran, either a formal occupation or a more informal arrangement. And the only way to me that that will ever change is if Israeli Jewish society is made to pay economically, to pay a cost for what they are doing, which is the only way South African apartheid ended. That over time and much activism and campaigns and boycotts and sanctions, South African whites were told you have a choice. You either reform and essentially make peace with the black majority, Nelson Mandela and others, many others, or you will be a pariah.
Now, in many parts of the world, Israel is now that pariah. That’s not reflected at the political elite level, of course. You don’t hear that from Brussels or Washington or London at all. But in poll after poll after poll in the last two and a half years, Israel’s image is in the toilet. It’s tanked. And I do not radically see that changing. I just don’t. And that means that Israeli Jewish society will have to be made, through economic pressure and pain, to recognize that what they are doing, I mean I would say to the Middle East, but particularly to Palestinians, is an abomination and will not be supported by the world, by the civilized world. We are not at that point yet. Clearly, but the last two and a half years have pushed that very, very far along, very quickly. As I said, this is not based on an opinion, it’s based on actual polling in country after country after country. So, and just finally, finally, one thing that I’ve said a lot and it’s worth repeating here is that, to me, Israeli actions in Palestine, Gaza, the West Bank, and frankly what we’re seeing now. I mean, just there was a lead piece in the New York Times just today saying why is America bombing Iran? Principal reason, Israel had been pushing them and pressuring them for a long time and eventually they caved. It’s a bit more complicated than that, it’s not quite as neat as that, but see when that sort of thing is said, what do you think that happens to people’s brains across the world? I’m telling you it leads to anti-Semitism. I’m not saying it’s not true. I mean, it’s obviously true. The New York Times didn’t make that up.
I mean, their reporting off on this issue is terrible, but they did some good reporting last 24 hours and Netanyahu and the Israeli government has been pressuring the Trump administration to bomb Iran, to conduct a regime change operation. Trump, for a range of reasons, clearly in the end agreed and this is where we’re at. And the effect of that is that you start attracting the Tucker Carlsons of this world, who in my view, yes, is increasingly critical of Israel and talks about, I don’t know if he uses the word genocide, but certainly is deeply opposed to what Israel is doing. But I do not see his agenda as pure. I mean, he’s constantly talks about wanting to maintain a white race in America. I mean, you know, the idea of partnering with this kind of guy to me seems insane, but Israeli actions have led to this moment. So I think increasingly it is putting Jews in a very, very difficult position. And that’s why for many of us, and I’ve been doing this for over 20 years now, the so-called establishment mainstream Jewish community in virtually every Western country, US, UK, Europe, Poland, Australia, the fact that they are giving and have been giving for years 110% support to Israel, regardless of what it does, whether it’s Gaza, West Bank, Iran, whatever, is so destructive and endangers all of us. And it’s just why many of us not just oppose it, but are having to build alternative organizations, because those organisations are so complicit and making all of us less safe. I mean, we are in a very precarious moment. I’ll leave it at that.
Ewa Górska
[43:50] It’s a very sad summary or ending to the conversation, but I also hope that what you mentioned before about hope will also maybe inspire at least some listeners that there are things that still can be done, and the world can be a better place.
Antony Loewenstein
[44:09] Definitely. I have to believe that too.
Ewa Górska
[44:12] Yeah, so we can continue. Antony, thank you very much. It was great to have you here and a great conversation.
Antony Loewenstein
[44:20] I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.
Ewa Górska
[44:22] I appreciate it as well. Thank you as well. Thanks.
Antony Loewenstein
[44:25] Pleasure.